1. I have a similar connection to yours and there is zero noticeable load time when I visit lineto.com. Did have friends at other locations test the site before writing your review?

Also, you might be missing Lineto's sense of humor when you critique the "List of Newspapers".

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Stephen Coles

2. You have links to Mark Cuban and your script but none to the site you're reviewing. An oversight?

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Stephen Coles

3. You are undoubtedly using a Mac to browse that site, Stephen. I've tried www,lineto.com from three different PCs, and load times are horrible - but things load very fast on Safari/Panther. This tells me that not only is the site browser-specific, but also platform-specific. I'm with the original post: stupid site, bad fonts, lousy attitude.

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Shambo

4. I know the guys who made the new Lineto site and I'm pretty much certain that the title bar texts aren't browser-oriented. The jokey dig at Microsoft (IE may be the most popular browser on earth, but come on: its track record of security holes and bugs isn't exactly exemplary) is just one of a set of random titles. I don't think they're really making judgements on your browser choice.

"La Police des Polices" is a French pun: the word for "font" in French is "police". Since the French for police is also "police", Lineto are proclaiming, tongue in cheek: "The Police of Fonts".

They must be one of the only font sites with a self-deprecating sense of humour, with a healthy scepticism of conventional marketing wisdom. Perhaps some people aren't used to this?

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Jacques

5. Stephen: You're absolutely right! I missed the darn link. It SHOULD have appeared in the Related Links section automatically. Either the system goofed or I did. Regardless, I should have noticed that it wasn't there.

Thanks VERY much for pointing that out. I'll correct it right now.

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Pariah Burke

6. Thanks for the post Jacques.

I visited the site multiple times from the browsers I noted just to be sure I wasn't experiencing transitory issues. In all cases, when IE hit the site, I got the title bar message I quoted. Also in all cases, Opera failed to load the page.

If you know the people who created the site, you should point them to this post. As Shambo, and others to whom I've spoken, have confirmed, the site loads terribly slowly on any Windows-based browser (those three mentioned above). Most Win users will give up very quickly, and the design world is no longer exclusively on Mac.

I appreciate Lineto's sense of humor now that I understand the French reference, but the overall attitude presented is certainly not inviting to users--especially to roughly 80% of the Web's population using Windows-based IE or Opera.

If they change the site, please comment about it here. I'd be happy to revisit the site and re-review if the site becomes friendly to visitors.

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Pariah Burke

7. As someone who has recently bought two typefaces from Lineto, both from their new website, I must say that I find their site not only very sophisticated in design, but also practical to use and - most of all - truly original in its approach. It may take a moment to get used to the navigation, but once familiar it works a beauty. I am also thoroughly pleased with both of the fonts, one of which works brilliantly as a text face (Typ 1451).
OK, I am a Mac user, but then so is probably the majority of their clients and I see no harm in optimising a website for your clientele - I would do the same. In fact, I can see more than one nod to Apple's OSX in the design of the site, so rather than criticise it for what it is not one should maybe point out its strenghts. The way the website is displaying text sources pulled from the internet is simply spectacular, and performs incredibly fast (on my Mac, in Safari); now THAT is a programming feat. It's very clever thinking, and the feature is unique to their site - it leaves me baffled every time. In fact, it made me buy two typefaces right then and there.
Plus, when it comes to humor and a relaxed attitude, these guys beat you lot hands down.

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Robert U. Preissner

8. Thanks for the comment, Robert, but you're missing the point. To wit:

I like the navigation system, as I noted.

"I am a Mac user, but then so is probably the majority of their clients..."

There isn't as big a disparity between creatives working on Mac over Windows as there was ten years ago. While Mac is still the preferred platform, many, many creatives are running on Win2000 or WinXP. Then there are service bureaus and large production houses (newspapers, magazines) that have Macs and PCs in the same workflow.

"I see no harm in optimising a website for your clientele - I would do the same."

"Optimizing" is different from "to the exclusion of all else."

Yes, the Lineto site works great on OS X with Safari. I've seen it. Wonderful. The site nods to OS X and works wonderfully for the whopping 3.2% of the computer market on the Internet.

If Lineto chooses to make a political stand with its website, then that is Lineto's right. But don't try to characterize the exclusion and/or insult of 85+% of the potential purchasers of Lineto fonts in favor of a near total pandering to a minority as anything but political.

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Pariah Burke

9. So this is about Mac and PC now, is it? If I take it correctly, you felt personally insulted just because some Mac users dared to publicly air their anger at the Mac version of the much-hated Internet Explorer, which is basically a laughably lame piece of software? And then you went on your blog to dismiss the whole site as a bad piece of design because of that? Ever occured to you that they did not take a stab at you, but at Microsoft?
Print design is still very much in the hands of Mac users and, let me tell you, thank God for that. I will never ever work on a windows machine. I have been forced to try it once and it does not come anywherre near the overall performance of a Mac. Let's face it: Have a look at who is involved in the creative process of print design, let's look at the award-winning work, let's look at the design books, the award shows, etcetera: it's still all done by Mac users, period. The one and only advantage of PC over Mac is the price. Unfortunately, it seems to be the crucial one.

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Robert U. Preissner

10. You're the one trying to make this a Mac vs. PC issue, not me. Let it go. I won't lower myself to that kind of pointless arguement.

"anger at the Mac version of the much-hated Internet Explorer". Two points: So, in other words, the thousands of professional creatives still on OS 8 or OS 9 are S.O.L. just like all the Windows creatives? Unless one has Safari, Lineto isn't interested in doing business with one? More than half of the magazines and newspapers Lineto lists on its site haven't yet upgraded their production workflows to OS X. Lineto obviously doesn't actually WANT them to use Lineto fonts then, huh?

"anger at the Mac version of the much-hated Internet Explorer". Point two: That message appears on the Windows version of Internet Explorer. I dumped IE from my Mac the minute Safari became available, so I don't know if it appears in IE on Mac.

"And then you went on your blog to dismiss the whole site as a bad piece of design because of that? Ever occured to you that they did not take a stab at you, but at Microsoft?" You don't WANT to get it, do you, Robert? You can't win the arguement on facts and the salient points brought up, so you're trying to make it sound like an issue personal to me. It isn't.

This isn't about me. It isn't about you. It's about Lineto.com, an inanimate conglomeration of HTML and JavaScript code, albeit designed by humans. Unless you are a Lineto employee, you shouldn't take all this so personally, Robert. Relax! The site's problems speak for themselves.

"Let's face it: Have a look at who is involved in the creative process of print design, let's look at the award-winning work, let's look at the design books, the award shows, etcetera: it's still all done by Mac users, period."

[Sigh] Writing a superlative statement is a mark of naivete. Ending a superlative statement with a declarative like "...period" is a mark of overall ignorance. I don't think you're ignorant, so it must signify that you're angry. At what, Robert? Why are you taking this matter so personally? Were you personally involved in the design of Lineto.com? If so, then you should disclose this fact as it is more than germaine to your arguement--indeed, it speaks directly to your motivation for perpetuating this debate. If you were not personally involved in the development of the Lineto.com site, then why are you getting so worked up over it?

"The one and only advantage of PC over Mac is the price. Unfortunately, it seems to be the crucial one."

Don't be a pundit for things you don't fully understand. Your last two sentences are biased from a Mac-devotee standpoint. I'm not saying that they are necessarily wrong, just not objective. And, hence useless to a discussion such as this. As you've said, you've never used Windows. Therefore you are not qualified to evaluate Windows. For that matter, by virtue of your lack of a frame of reference, neither are you qualified to evaluate the Mac beyond how it measures up to your personal expectations of it, and, possibly, how one version of the OS you'ved used compares to other versions you've used.

*I* am "involved in the creative process of print design," and have been for nearly two decades (since before the Mac, actually). I know the market. I make a good living working in print design, including work for some of the world's best known brands (number one is on that list, too). I don't need to go into the specifics of my experience in that field or my employment with Adobe in this forum. If you do a little homework you'll find out for yourself.

The point of this post, regardless of what pointless soapbox you try to turn it into, is that the Lineto site:
• doesn't function at all with Windows-based Opera;
• presents a profane titlebar for Windows-based Internet Explorer, and;
• takes forever to load on Windows, regardless of the browser or connection speed.

I'll give you the "LA POLICE, DES POLICE" FireFox titlebar as being a joke. Now that you've translated, I can see the joke.

I agree--and have always agreed--that the navigation system is excellent, efficient, and intuitive. Assuming the site loads, anyone should be able to instantly understand the navigation system.

While I have not examined the site code--I don't care enough about Lineto to waste my time troubleshooting their code--the complete failure of the site to function in a (mostly) standards-compliant browser like Opera implies one of two things: Either the Lineto staff (are you one of them?) specifically disallowed access to Opera, or the Lineto staff doesn't know how to write solid, standards-compliant HTML/JavaScript code.

Again, either way, I don't care. Lineto is a third-rate font (I hesitate to use the same word for Lineto as I use for Monotype, Letraset, et al) foundry more interested in making a political stand about a computer platform--something in which they have no personal stake beyond brand loyalty--than in selling their products to professional customers.

"I will never ever work on a windows machine." I think I just heard a tremendous sigh of relief from Microsoft.

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Pariah Burke

11. I'm out of here, your blog is a waste of time.

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Robert U. Preissner

12. I was thinking the exact same thing, actually. You just keep on ranting, trying to turn my statements into something they aren't.

You can't debate civilly about the points, so you're choosing the coward's way out.

Buh-bye.

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Pariah Burke

13. Guys, the site works like a charm on Windows Opera 7 on my system. And it also works very nicely on Internet Explorer.
I really cannot see where your problem lies. To me it doesnt look at all as if the site was optimized for OS X only.
Calm down and get a life!

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Matt

14. Thanks for the update, Matt. The site completely fails with Opera 6.5, but I haven't tried 7. I had been holding out for the release of 7.5 before upgrading, but I just might have to get 7.

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Pariah Burke

15. Mr. Burke,

A client pointed us to your review of our new website. Looking at your
own site it is clear that we do not share any common aesthetic ground.
We find your judgements of our fonts and our website unfounded,
ill-informed, and suprisingly hostile, mixing fact, fiction and your
personal view of the world as you see fit. We would like to point out
the following:

- Opera 6 is an old browser with a negligible share of the market; the
analysis of our site visitor data showed virtually no Opera 6 users.
The site works remarkably well on a wide variety of browsers on both
platforms and performs perfectly well in Opera 7.
- We have had no complaints so far about slow loading times, not from
mac or pc users - on the contrary. The site had been tested at a
variety of connection speeds and was continually optimised to ensure
fast loading times. Looking closer at what the site does, you'll see
that it works incredibly fast.
- The site has been tried and tested on Mac and PC, on all important
browsers, to ensure that the site works well on both platforms, for any
kind of user. If you check back to the site, you'll find that a couple
of changes make the site is even faster loading now.
- Our browser bar comment about Internet Explorer was referring to the
Mac version of said product. We do not have a problem with Microsoft,
but we'll happily continue ridiculing bad software.
- Our typefaces have been produced by noted designers. They represent
an aesthetic choice which you may or may not approve of. They are
carefully designed and professionally engineered software tools, and we
proudly defend their artistic integrity and their technological
standard. We do not usually comment on the quality of other foundries'
fonts, but you should know that many Letraset fonts do not even come
with complete character sets, let alone kerning pairs.

Sincerely, Lisa Knoll for Lineto.com

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Lisa Knoll

16. Ms. Knoll,

Thank you for sharing Lineto's point of view. As you may have read, the argument got rather heated on the part of a Lineto supporter whose vehemence and demeanor implied that he had some official or professional connection with Lineto.com. I'm very glad to hear from an authorized respresentative of Lineto, and a cooler head at that.

Now, to your comments:
"Opera 6 is an old browser with a negligible share of the market; the analysis of our site visitor data showed virtually no Opera 6 users. The site works remarkably well on a wide variety of browsers on both platforms and performs perfectly well in Opera 7."

You ARE aware, aren't you, that most Opera users configure their browsers to misidentify themselves as IE? From Browser Trends (http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat_trends.htm): "One survey in early 2004 revealed that ~72% of Opera users had configured it to identify itself as Internet Explorer." This is often the case because some sites still, after three years, intentionally filter out Opera (they filter out everything but IE, not necessarily just Opera).

If you read the comments above you'll note a few important things: First, I tested in Opera 6.5 with the results reported. Second, as Matt noted, it does work in Opera 7. And, finally, that load times are horrible on a PC, not just for me but for the respondant Shambo--and from others who have contacted me privately.

As you asked, I did check back with the site. Indeed it does load quite a lot faster. I timed it at 23 seconds from manual launch of the popup to full render of the popup page. Previously I had been counting that time in minutes. Nice work!

I'm glad to see my review of Lineto.com led to positive change in that you've been able to dramatically speed up the site's loading.

Your browser comment bar doesn't draw a distinction between the Mac and Windows versions of Internet Explorer. If you are adamant about making your point regarding IE on the Mac, may I suggest changing the statement to read "Internet Explorer on the Mac is a piece of shit". As it is, you're shouting that to 85+% of the Windows Internet users who might come to Lineto looking to buy.

Regarding my website design... If you look around, you'll note that this blog is part of a large cohesive network of blogs, Weblogsinc.com. The look is standardized across all blogs in the network, and the focus is on the accessibility and legibility of a diverse selection of content for a variety of audiences. Though I didn't design this blog, I have no issues with it for its given purpose: To deliver textual content.

If you'd really like to compare web design aesthetics, then please, look at something I have actually designed: http://portfolio.iampariah.com.

Re: Letraset: I'm not going to debate you on Letraset vs. Lineto. That's not a discussion I intend to get into. However, I honestly just grabbed a name out of thin air when I wrote that. I actually went to Adobe to see what they might have new to follow up Brioso Pro.

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Pariah Burke

17. "but you should know that many Letraset fonts do not even come
with complete character sets, let alone kerning pairs."

Such a low blow! If you think that anyone at Lineto can EVER reach the pedigree of type art Letraset produced for decades upon decades, you're just fooling yourself and proving your ignorance to the world. This is like someone from four-walls-and-two-chairs-is-plenty Bauhaus telling people that a Spanish cathedral has a crack at a seam. The least you can do as an artist is respect the history of your own art!

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Shambo

18. Since I visited Lineto.com on Panther with Safari, I can't comment on the website's usability. I can comment on the clones Lineto publishes.

I don't see any originality in the "new" typefaces debuted recently by Lineto. These fonts, "produced by noted designers" actually "represent an aesthetic choice" that was made by millions long before Lineto existed. These are clone fonts. In the most obvious case you cloned Franklin Gothic.

You can dismiss this blog if you want, but designers - YOUR POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS - are reading it. I'm sure it brings you traffic (so you should be grateful) but I really don't see any designer on a budget (and who isn't these days?) spending money to buy Lineto-branded versions of fonts they already own from other, more professional type foundries.

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Kiliki

19. I came here from typographi.ca.

I'm on Safari too, but my office (I telecommute) is 50/50 Mac/PC for the layout dept. We're a big name monthly magazine (1.25 million circulation). I'm going to point our production manager to this thread just in case she even thinks about buying Lineto. I will tell her to use PC/IE just in case.

If the site really does perform that slowly and make those statements, then the title is correct. Lineto has a big mouth. Lisa Knoll's comment sure prove THAT statement.

-AW

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Alan Wills

20. Just for the record, I'm currently surfing the web on a PC, which is at least four years old, using IE with Windows ME. Lineto's site works great... just as great as when I used my brand-new powerbook with safari.

Before the Lineto re-launch, I was not familiar with them, or their products. However, after following the critique posted on this site as well as on Typographica, I would like to say that I find all of the arguments posted against Lineto to be misgrounded. Honestly, they all sound a bit pedantic to me.

Mr. Wills, I still have no idea why you wouldn't want your magazine to use Lineto's fonts. I would look at the fonts themselves; they are interesting pieces or work. Ms. Knoll's pride in them should not disqualify them from your use.

And Mr. Burke, you seem to be on a witch-hunt.

Besides, IMHO IE is a piece-of-shit, whether 85% of the market uses it or not. I won't fault Lineto for calling a spade a spade.

Posted at 6:02AM on Dec 19th 2005 by Dan Reynolds